German Shepherds, Huskies). Struggling to describe this. If the mums with low functioning autistic children, the ones I spoke to described the fathers as losers or deadbeats. linear or quadratic around the average and possibly tapers off sub-linearly on the tails. autism polygenic risk scores attached to Tinder profiles It would explain the association of genes for intelligence with autism (holding foundation strength constant, the taller the tower, the more likely a failure). When she was three, she had symptoms of autism. It really made a difference for him to get to a school where he fit with the other kids. As a result, they have unbalanced physiologies; their bone and cartilage may not be strong enough to support their frames, their hearts may be too large or too small for their bodies, their nasal passages may be truncated because their snouts are shorter than the rest of their genetic blueprint expects. Crespi suggests that autism is marked by an imbalance between P (as the tower) and V + R (as the foundation). paternal IQ/ autism seems pretty much decorrelated, which is strange given the 100% confidence that autism genes are IQ boosting. But every so often, somebody tries to do . Anecdote is not data, which overwhelmingly show a negative correlation between IQ and fertility. I spent a lot of time reading about giftedness (having a IQ > 130) in the last few months, specifically educating gifted kids and teenagers, and I found out quite some things about how giftedness can interact with social ability: It turns out that giftedness can be quite a burden for children and teenagers, as not many of their peers can relate to them and vice versa. I knew a wrestler back in college, really huge and muscular dude. This is a common situation, but not with many genes of small effect. Some people worry about assortative mating in Silicon Valley: highly analytical tech workers marry other highly analytical tech workers. If genes for autism (without autism itself) increase intelligence, we should expect these people to be unusually smart. The high end should stay the same, in much the way that the high end of human lifespan is only a little longer now than in 1800its just that a lot more people make it to 90 or 100 with modern medical care. also didnt say anything about recruitment. The difference between high and low functioning autistic children is significant. i.e. I never liked that. I always used to get one word wrong on purpose because I preferred the silver stars. I am convinced there are a lot more genius now, but : (my son was a Caesarian delivery) but that was because his head (=brain?) One of psychiatry's many embarrassments is how many of our drugs get discovered by accident. As an AI researcher, this actually seems pretty intuitive for me. The tower of intelligence needs to be built upon some kind of mysterious foundation. The bit about Comey honestly just seems like partisan sniping to me. In the 1800s, the average US man weighed about 155 lbs. As a practical matter of course these disorder clusters can easily overlap and often do, as seen in the most recent DSM when they allowed co-diagnosis of autism and ADHD for the first time (by popular demand pretty much!). I thought we were starting to get clear evidence that genes associated with IQ (through the proxy of years of education completed) were being selected AGAINST in 20th century society, which is intuitive (educated people on average have fewer children, because time during child-bearing years is consumed with schooling). This could be constructed as autistic behavior, but I dont buy it. Generally high end career civil servants and similar. Given the numerous different genetic correlates to autism, if one wants to preserve the diagnostic validity of autism by finding a single etiology, one might hypothesize that all of these genes affect a narrow set of brain circuitry in a similar way, but as discussed in the Waterhouse paper people have tried to do this and (per her lit review) failed to do so. He has the making of a superb engineer. Seattle Anxiety Specialists are a therapy practice helping people overcome anxiety and related mental health issues (eg GAD, OCD, PTSD) through evidence based interventions and self-exploration. Theres a range for this parameter, selection in the past has left most of the population too low, but if you push the parameter up too high things will break. You don't have to be a diagnosed autist to be like that. Some people can correctly identify the pitch of a single note played on the piano. r/slatestarcodex Did recent AI . If a high quantity of a good thing comes with a risk of problems that reduce the quantity again, then you could understand the ability to keep the problems at bay as foundation of the tower. Probably not the most important feature of this research but its a thunderous argument against modern day IQ-obsessed cryptoeugenicists. Thus it is perhaps unsurprising that our data suggests that the contribution of common variants may be more prominent in high-functioning ASD cases such as Aspergers syndrome. There is also some link to male sex, I do believe that there are higher levels of males with low intelligence autism. Right, genes are NOT good or bad. For example: people who are smart are more likely to seek out a diagnosis for their kid who has something wrong with them. We are both university qualified. The genes and developmental stuff is one part, an enriching environment in childhood is another, and the physical requirements (adequate nutrition and good health and few toxins present during critical parts of brain development in childhood, continued good health in adulthood). 47.3k members in the slatestarcodex community. (:D Sorry, couldnt resist the quip; please carry on.). This has nothing to do with the OP, but I will definitely comment on your wrestling example, as a wrestler. (I.e. A preference (or aptitude for) logical or systems thinking. More, by that point your identity probably includes significant aspects which make the idea of becoming normal and predictable less personally palatable. Is it because that is a trait many people here associate with passing for normal? Two of these are diagnosed as autistic, though with very different forms. He (I presume) seems to be a bad conversationalist, likely through lack of practice. I would expect a challenge, in testing the intelligence of Autistics. Agreed. After further consideration, Im unaware of any phenomenon which would correspond to a low-function, low-intelligence version. autism is effectively what we call people whose mental resolution (in the sense of pixels per inch) is too high. This makes a very strong auditory learner. Naturally, things are getting worse. Each genes benefit is based on underlying assumptions about how the body works, and if you change enough of those assumptions, the entire edifice becomes a failure. Trump = President Camacho, the contemporary media is just as idiotic as the media in that movie, etc. I have a female acquaintance who was diagnosed with autism. (This sounds harsh, but I want a child at least as normal as I am). And many types of successful arrangements/balances existbrilliant minds can look very different, and a trait or dynamic good in one person can take another person down if the overall arrangement is out of whackactually, the same trait can lead to wildly different outcomes in the same person. So far, this is still 70% wish-casting to 30% reality-aligned. This might sound mean, and Im very sorry if this offends anyone, but just seeing what my family has gone through, I would definitely find having a severely disabled child worse than not having one and would likely be unhappy with a child any more than slightly aspie. and they seem just as likely to have unplanned children as less intelligent people with equally bad impulse control. I feel like unless your definition of normal includes non-highly intelligent this is just so far from true. I am not, but we both initially bonded over (I dont know a way to put this delicately or more exactly) being objectively very smart people that dont perform intelligence very well, albeit different ways. Its not difficult to guess what someones response would be to many chit-chat topics. (*), Its not hard to measure my IQ, except that it generally falls at the top of the scale where the tests dont make effective distinctions. Because he was as skilled as me, and had real muscles. This is true in a sense, but also alters what we mean by normal. The genes that increase risk of autism are disproportionately also genes that increase intelligence, and vice versa (~100% confidence), 2. Many definitions of autism center around forms of poor functioning which are correlated with low intelligence. The post is laden with unsaid assumptions that do not make sense to me. the Council for Evidence-Based Psychiatry in the UK on the lack of validity of diagnostic categories in psychiatry http://cepuk.org/unrecognised-facts/diagnostic-system-lacks-validity/). My wife is dyslexic; Im not. Think about it this way: When most other people behave incomprehensible for you because they dont see the same emotional nuances and act on their impulses, it is hard to learn social customs, even though you theoretically have the potential to be very skilled socially. We cant do much about the genetic or random developmental stuff, but we can make sure most of the things that have stunted peoples intelligence over time go away. So one model is that we should see two things happening at once, as a result of the assortative mating by IQ thats been going on for a couple generations now in the US: a. focus on the denotations of words, not the emotional or social connotations. Has paternal/maternal age been eliminated as cofounding factor from parents IQ/autism correlation? I would argue the same standardization that has raised IQ generally actually de-selects for geniuses in many caseswe spend a lot of time getting people to think and act a certain way and behave efficiently etc. What will be interesting to see if we get weeded out before getting close to the top, and if the breakdown will stay the same. Agree with your post, and especially with this part. In particular, the excess of alleles associated with higher intelligence and educational attainment was only observed in the higher functioning categories (particularly Aspergers syndrome and individuals without comorbid intellectual disability) and not in the other/unspecified PDD and intellectual disability categories. And at least a few of them were probably just lying outright. Maybe one bias from my statement is Im young, and many of my smart friends are also young. Pretending that people with autism diagnoses are typical of people with autism is useful when trying to treat the symptoms of autism; but ignoring less symptomatic people results in ineffective studies when trying to figure out causes and effects. Like many DSM diagnoses it is a junkheap of often unrelated symptoms wrapped up in a single label for essentially politically reasons. Ive heard stories of autistic children sometimes regressing in development around 2 years old, e.g. I hesitate to make anything out of this, but whenever theres a study that links pre-natal stress to autism, my ears perk up a little. One just needs to consider a model where a brain is a complicated object whose organization and function depends on changes in the genetic blueprint in non-monotonic ways, and it is likely that all combinations (attainable via sexual reproduction) of genes that are beneficial alone or in some particular arrangements are not even more beneficial together; some of the potential arrangements are bound to be non-optimal or even catastrophic. Most of these seem to be related to social ability. Maybe the pattern is something like this (calling rare IQ/autism boosting alleles IQb): 80,000 Hours researches different problems and professions to help you figure out how to do as much good as possible. A lot of people are using social aptitude as a proxy because thats at least something measureable (at least in concept, if not in practice). GS-14 speaking, and Im not exactly normal either. If you mean extraverted, no small number. Why on Earth people take a decomposition of intelligence quotient such as the v-p-r, while itself fairly reasonable sounding but also very broad, and take seriously attempts to shoehorn that as the biological mechanism behind a very handwavy metaphor-like explanation such as tower and foundation?It is blatantly obvious that v-p-r is a very crude model that should not make sense. Question the first. High IQ, excellent at math, maybe a little socially awkward but not too bad (we live in a reasonably large town, so there are lots of like-minded kids he can socialize with.) Well, there is a point, but it takes a long time to grasp it, at which point you are significantly behind people who went along with them without questioning them. Slate Star Codex Tag Archives: iq Autism And Intelligence: Much More Than You Wanted To Know Posted on November 13, 2019 by Scott Alexander [Thanks to Marco DG for proofreading and offering suggestions] I. Its a highly abnormal subset of people. Just look at Kanye West, for example. If Ronemus isnt missing some obscure de novo mutations, then people who get autism solely by accumulation of common (usually IQ-promoting) variants still end up less intelligent than average. Perhaps this is an obvious point with an obvious answer, but wouldnt female prevalence of diagnosed autism be expected to be markedly lower? Slate Star Codex was a blog by Scott Alexander about human cognition, politics, and medicine. For example, they may dislike the father for not doing enough when the kid is self-harming from overstimulation. Many people she knew, she said, felt duped by psychiatrists, for example, who they felt. 1. Draft. Wheat has been genetically modified recently in ways that make it much worse for you. In sum, the heterogeneity of risk factors, brain impairments, and non-diagnostic symptoms in an ASD-defined sample blocks valid scientific inference. I am not saying they have the full disorder (and no its not a partisan snipe, except to the extent that being very skeptical of the US bureaucratic class is partisan). This is consistent with the existence of people in the past who seem to be about as bright as humans get. But for me the key point is that high-intelligence fathers show a trend (albeit not significant in this study) to be more likely than average to have children with autism and intellectual disability. But the ability to notice patterns in the world, analyze phenomena and their causes/effects, understand highly complex and abstract concepts, and make connections between things all seem to be correlated with higher levels of social awareness and persuasive ability. My problem with this kind of model is that some people are geniuses but dont have autism. Of 11 types of psychiatric condition, only autism was associated with increased intelligence among relatives. So is she a non-serious case? Could you elaborate? It was my first thought, too admittedly followed by the second thought wait, no, theyll have thought of that one ages ago. 2. Normal is being concerned enough with appearing normal to try being normal, yes. The ICD-11, which was adopted this year and will be implemented globally by 2022, instead calls it autism spectrum disorder without disorder of intellectual development and with mild or no impairment of functional language. Proponents of the change hope to reduce stereotypes. It could be one of the categorization problems Scott was talking about in Against Against Autism Cures. If youre not low-functioning but dont have strong enough autistic traits to be clearly a high-functioning autistic, you dont have autism youre just a little weird? It seems that a process like this could conceptually produce an artificial bimodal distribution, even if the traits arent bimodally distributed. A couple of property developers Ive worked with. Slate Star Codex Assortative Mating And Autism Posted on January 28, 2020 by Scott Alexander Introduction Assortative mating is when similar people marry and have children. A lot of dog breeds, particularly those that are very small (like Teacup Yorkies), very large (like Great Danes), or otherwise very different from the default canine somatoform (like Pugs), tend to suffer from health problems at a vastly higher rate than mutts or more natural breeds (e.g. Our ages when our son (1st child) was born were 27 (me) and 26 (my wife), and for our daughter (3rd child) we were 31 and 30. For what its worth, I was diagnosed with Aspergers (which has now been folded into autism) at age 12 and as part of the diagnosis they did an IQ test with a processing IQ component and a verbal IQ component, and although the documents I have dont list the actual scores, the result is referred to in the documents as being very high in the verbal component and very low in the processing component. When I was a music major in college it was the research interest of one of my professors and he put the students with perfect pitch through a couple of tests like this in class. His auditory channel is very slow and only turns on when you say his name or repeat the question. I suspect a lot of people who answered the survey were giving scores from IQ tests they took as children, or from internet tests of dubious quality. This study of three large birth cohorts finds a correlation between genetic risk for autism and cognitive ability (beta = 0.07). Ive certainly known highly intelligent people who did not seem to be crazy or disfunctional in any obvious way. And an article by John Elder Robison pointing out that most of our data on autistic people come from children and the extreme cases. But if you pile on enough of the genes that increase IQ by increasing your head circumference, you will get a kid with such a huge head that his neck wont support it and his heart and lungs cant keep his giant brain in oxygenated blood, and hell die as a baby. If relatives of autists are smarter, then that sounds to me like a regression towards the mean. i do wish you wouldnt use the phrase autism risk. That seems like a poor methodology; I think it would be better to start with an unbiased sample of the general population and test them for both autism and IQ. Her IQ has only been tested once, by a neuropsych, and came in around 90. There is no reason to think that e.g. He is the most Civil Servicy person around. This study from UK Biobank finds a genetic correlation between genetic risk for autism and educational attainment (r = 0.34), and between autism and verbal-numerical reasoning (r = 0.19). High IQs appear to be selected for, as does ASD; while the the survival advantage of the first is obvious, the second is a really high cost to pay from a fitness standpoint, and Im skeptical that the IQ on its own would be worth it as a survival advantage. It would be interesting to see more fine-grained dependency between autism and IQ, i.e. Just install an extension and when you buy something, people in poverty will get medicines, bed nets, or financial aid. There are maybe as many as 1000 of them in the Western world, and none of them would want to ever hang out with us because they are smart enough to know that their time would be better spent managing their billion-dollar corporations and/or governments. For example, the experience of people who are blind at birth and then are given sight as an adult vs. those who lost vision as a child and then have their sight restored as an adult. The blog was written by Scott Alexander Siskind, [1] a San Francisco Bay Area psychiatrist, [2] under the pen name Scott Alexander. my kid who is on the spectrum is 12 and ok functioning (doing well in middle school) i cant imagine what would get us into the therapist office to do an IQ test. For another (Ravens), its a bunch of iterations of the same basic task (a kind of visual puzzle with one piece missing), described here. Let me see if I can dig up one of the studies that I saw mentioned. (Always Sunny parodied this phenomenon with Mac, who only works out his glamour muscles.). There was definitely a sperg-normie dynamic on my last work team, all highly intelligent. This requires a strongly non-linear sensitivity to hyperparameters, which is unusual for the fitness w.r.t. We just rarely see them because they dont hang out with us losers. The same principle can be applied to genetic traits. The selection findings are across historical time, not recent industrial time, and theyve found that IQ is being selected for as well. I talk more about this in parts 2 and 3 here. My relatively uninformed opinion would be: what the mutations might be affecting in lower-order terms are some subtle parameters of prior mapping, or something like a lower threshold for whats considered to be sufficient fit for model validity, or what kinds of sensory inputs to give particular significance to. For one, its multiple different kinds of mental tasks whose scores are then combined to get an IQ score. Genes which are helpful until you have too many of them, at which point you are screwed. What do SSC readers think? Maybe I just dont understand what you mean by normal. The Vision Of Vilazodone And Vortioxetine. Many such cases with Aspergers (me too), whereas for high functioning autism the deficit is inverted for processing vs visuo-spatial. Superficially, this seems more plausible to me than the tower vs. foundation model, especially since its type of phenomenon we already observe for better-understood things the brain does, e.g. And autistic people have more health issues than non-autistic people do. Giving What We Can is a charitable movement promoting giving some of your money to the developing world or other worthy causes. -.-). Maybe even only a small fraction of potential arrangements are just right to produce ever-increasing levels of some capability in the phenotype. The best-studied are probably obstetric complications, eg a baby gets stuck in the birth canal and cant breathe for a long time. The hypothesis of the blog post is that two people with autism spectrum traits should have children with associated negative outcomes. Its not like theyll answer anybody. However, once it exceeds a certain threshold, the network starts learning things that dont make any sense, and then when it tries to correct those mistakes it goes too far in the other direction again. I was getting my disorders mixed up, yes, but this is the one I was thinking of. He initially appeared to learn the names of items when we attached labels with printed words on them around our house. My 3rd child, a girl, is much lower functioning.
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